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General Category => D&E Specific => Topic started by: on January 27, 2013, 09:31:38 PM

Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on January 27, 2013, 09:31:38 PM

I recently started my D&E re-build with the following goals. Re-use as many parts and materials I have from previous builds. Use the several improvements we have been discussing. Add improvements as the build progresses. Complete a gun that will fire 100 rounds without a misfire.

Roller has already shown that the D&E can be made to fire reliably. I especially like the color of his gun.

As I am now aware of the firing problems I started from the center outward instead of following the order of the instructions. I wanted to make the main shaft one piece so I could more easily mount it on my test stand. I made it from 5/8 chrome 1045 steel rod.

[attachment=9025:DSC00165-id=1128.JPG]

I started by aligning the tail stock. As I was using a collet closer the tail stock was now not in line as it was much closer to the head stock.

[attachment=9024:DSC00163-id=1129.JPG]

I turned and threaded the rear end.

[attachment=9026:DSC00166-id=1130.JPG]

I added a brass capture nut to secure the parts.

[attachment=9027:DSC00174-id=1131.JPG]

[attachment=0]DSC00175.JPG[/attachment]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on January 27, 2013, 09:38:13 PM

I turned and threaded the front end of the shaft. The measurements here will depend on the length of barrel you will use. I am re-using the barrels I have. They are a little shorter than the plans call for as I cut two barrel blanks from one purchased barrel. The shaft is not cut to final length yet. It has a center in it for testing.

[attachment=4]DSC00167.JPG[/attachment]

I made the front shaft from hex 3/8 ss rod. It is drilled out to fit over the extended main shaft. It is turned to accept a 3/8 needle bearing that will replace the brass bearing in the rail front. I added a small brass thrust washer.

[attachment=9028:DSC00168-id=1134.JPG]

I added a brass collar to the shaft. The first steel collar I made did not have enough material to true it to the shaft so I replaces it with a larger brass one.

[attachment=2]DSC00169.JPG[/attachment]

Truing the collar to the shaft.

[attachment=1]DSC00170.JPG[/attachment]

I test fitted the parts and found I had to clean the threads.

[attachment=0]DSC00172.JPG[/attachment]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on January 27, 2013, 09:42:08 PM
The assembled parts including the three piece thrust bearing and the ball bearing that fits into the cocking ring.
[attachment=0]DSC00173.JPG[/attachment]
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on January 27, 2013, 10:11:27 PM

The barrel ring per drawings.

[attachment=9029:DSC00176-id=1140.JPG]

The pan per drawing. I an using 1045 steel for these parts. The rim stop is brass.

[attachment=3]DSC00177.JPG[/attachment]

I made the bolt carrier two pieces. This was to shorten the length of the hole to be drilled. The instructions say to peck drill but I found this not to be accurate. I center drilled, then drilled progressively larger holes. I finished off with an extended end mill. The rear of the bolt carrier is bored to receive the three piece thrust bearing. One washer of the bearing replaces the spacer, detail 18, page 10.

[attachment=9030:DSC00178-id=1142.JPG]

I made an arbor to aid in the indexing of the parts. It has a key way in it.

[attachment=9031:DSC00179-id=1143.JPG]

[attachment=0]DSC00180.JPG[/attachment]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on January 27, 2013, 10:13:18 PM
Cutting the key way in the main shaft.
[attachment=1]DSC00171.JPG[/attachment]
The arbor in the dividing head.
[attachment=0]DSC00181.JPG[/attachment]
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on January 27, 2013, 11:13:53 PM

The plans and the instructions call for the parts to be held in place by tightening the nut, bottom of page on page 11,to the main shaft, detail 17 on page 10, with the alignment as shown on detail A on page 11. This will not work as the parts will move in use. Also the alignment of these parts is critical for the firing of the gun. I first pinned the parts together but found this not to my liking.

I used a 1/8 key. After machining the parts to size I broached in a key way. The key way was used to index the parts on the arbor.

[attachment=9043:DSC00185-id=1150.JPG]

The center of the barrel ring and pan holes is .077 to .080, as shown on page 19 detail D-D, off set from the center of the bolt carrier. This was easily set as it was one turn of my dividing head. This one turn is not exactly .080, it is a little more. But this allows for the firing pin to squarely strike the rim.

Key and key way in main shaft.

[attachment=9040:DSC00182-id=1147.JPG]

Pan and lower bolt carrier aligned with key.

[attachment=9041:DSC00183-id=1148.JPG]

When machining the pan do not forget to relieve the top edge 24 degrees as shown on page 7,

detail 12. This aids in feeding and ejecting the round.

[attachment=9042:DSC00184-id=1149.JPG]

Parts aligned and assembled on the one piece shaft.

[attachment=9044:DSC00186-id=1151.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on January 28, 2013, 03:51:51 PM
Steve,
I commend you for your tenacity.
I\'ve been in the hobby since 1997 and know of hundreds
who have started, but only a few reach the end.
Good luck
Jerry
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on January 28, 2013, 05:44:15 PM

Center drilling

[attachment=4]DSC00187.JPG[/attachment]

Roughing out the hole

[attachment=3]DSC00189.JPG[/attachment]

Finishing the hole to size with an extended end mill, I did not ream the holes as they will require filing and polishing for correct alignment after assembly.

[attachment=9045:DSC00190-id=1157.JPG]

Milling the groove in the upper bolt carrier

[attachment=9046:DSC00191-id=1158.JPG]

Turning the upper bolt carrier to finish size

[attachment=9048:DSC00194-id=1159.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on January 28, 2013, 06:56:18 PM

Machining the groove in the pan. I roughed out as much as possible with a square end mill. Then finished with a ball end mill.

The instructions call for a .270 dia mill but I used a .250 and made several passes.

[attachment=9050:DSC00193-id=1160.JPG]

I moved the dividing head to 10 degrees and 50 degrees and continued.

[attachment=9049:DSC00192-id=1161.JPG]

I found that removing the milling marks with a file worked best.

The purpose is to make all tool marks in the direction of the cartridge travel.

Any mark left by the end mill will affect smooth movement. Polishing will come later.

I made a die filer. I used a 1/4 round chain saw file.

[attachment=9051:DSC00196-id=1164.JPG]

I used a new motor from Surplus Center but it would not start. I disassembled it and found that several of the wires in the start circuit were broken. I repaired these and them found the start capacitor was burnt. I need to replace it with the proper sized one. It seems this motor was used and allowed to over heat?

Removing tooling marks in the pan.

[attachment=9052:DSC00197-id=1165.JPG]

I set the table over 10 degrees and 50 degrees and continued to file.

I did the same with the lower and upper bolt carrier. This will take some time.

[attachment=9053:DSC00198-id=1163.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on February 07, 2013, 10:35:22 AM

I am trying to build more than one gun.

The filing is going slowly because of my hands.

I have difficulty holding on to things for a long period of time.

Draw filing the perimeter of the pan.

[attachment=9054:DSC00199-id=1171.JPG]

While resting I made a modification to the D&E test stand.

[attachment=9056:DSC00201-id=1172.JPG]

[attachment=9057:DSC00202-id=1173.JPG]

I added hinges to be able to observe the action as the bolt closes.

[attachment=9059:DSC00204-id=1175.JPG]

[attachment=9058:DSC00203-id=1174.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on February 07, 2013, 11:05:00 AM

Tilting the test stand allows a direct view of the bolt when firing.

I did this so I am able to measure the head space.

It will also allow direct view of the extractor.

The bolt shown here does not have an extractor.

[attachment=9061:DSC00205-id=1176.JPG]

I made a spanner wrench to tighten the closing nut.

[attachment=9060:DSC00200-id=1177.JPG]

Wrench, nut and shaft.

[attachment=9062:DSC00206-id=1178.JPG]

The nut sets in a recess in the upper bolt carrier.

The nut and the land on the shaft are turned to be flush.

One of the thrust bearing washers rests on this land.

I did not turn the shaft and nut at first. I found a little roughness as the shaft turned.

[attachment=9063:DSC00207-id=1179.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on February 07, 2013, 11:30:24 AM
I really like the color of Roller\'s gun.
I took one set of the bolt carrier parts and flame colored them.
I quenched them in clean oil.  They came out a nice black.
I was pleased until I started to handle the parts.
The color began to rub off in places.  I did not do it correctly.
Parts were not clean it places.

One nameless post from the past mentions heat treating.
I made the parts of 1045 steel so I could try hardening.
I thought I could do it by flame but now I know I will need an oven.
This is defiantly out of the budget.  Wait a minute, do I have a budget?
There are many things I regret doing.  I had a broken blacksmith forge.
I sold it because I did not think I would have a use for it.
It would be good for this heating but I do not think I would have liked to repair it,
find the coal and fire it up outside in the winter.  Who knows?  
A few beers would probably have helped.

I have used black oxide kits from Caswell and Eastside.
I will got with one of them for the coloring.
Will start looking for a furnace that I can not afford.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on February 07, 2013, 07:26:14 PM
Steve,

Looks like your making great progress!  Love the photos!  I blued my gun with a cold blue from Brownells, Oxpho 7, it came out almost back, but was very easy to apply.

Frank
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on February 07, 2013, 09:16:29 PM
Hey Roller,
I agree with Sparky that your\'s is the first D&E gun to post a reliable firing.
My color scheme is going to be a brass body and exterior parts.
Black interior bolt carrier parts.
Natural steel frame.
Blue barrels.
I have used Eastwood black oxide kit.  I do not like the spray sealer.
I am going to try Caswell black oxide kit with liquid sealer.  Says it leaves
an oily surface for a few days.
I have Brownell bluing 44/40.  The liquid works better than the cream.  
The cream I like but it does not get as dark.
I like the flame coloring because of the cost.
I also like fire.
Will probably leave the bolts natural.
I am going to experiment with Caswells Plug n Plate electro plating with the holes
in the bolt carrier and pan in place of hardening the parts.
The object is to reduce the friction as much as possible.
That is also my reason for using bearings.
I like the three piece thrust bearing .
The needle bearing in the front does not seem to add any improvement
The added brass thrust washer does help.
I am planing on taking some torque measurements later to see if they are really an  improvement.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on February 07, 2013, 09:31:31 PM
Cutter,
My former wives said I was \'just too damn stubborn\'.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 02, 2013, 01:15:34 PM

Got tired of filing parts. Went on to other projects while waiting for

materials to arrive.

Could not get my truck to start for a week.


I had accuried a steel table with an old lathe attached to it from a man

named Murry. Very interisting man. Lots of stories of laying cable in the

swamps of Texas and Louisiana for the infamous Exon. He pass at 84 with cancer

and much pain. What a loss. Not even his son was interested in learning about his

metal working skills. He sold me an old Rhodes slotter for a song just to have someone use it.

He had another lathe I wanted but by the time I had saved the money he was gone

and so was the lathe. So was most of his other metal working tools.

[attachment=9064:DSC00210-id=1198.JPG]

The lathe on the table is a Craftsman 101, missing lots of parts. I decided to repair it.

I replaced the missing motor with variable DC. I added a variable DC to the lead screw.

I made all the missing parts. The purpose was for barrel making. I set it to taper the

barrels by off setting the tail stock. This way I would not tie up my other lathe.

[attachment=9065:DSC00211-id=1199.JPG]

I had all the same problems that Pmecer had when tapering. The first one turned well

for about 2/3 the length then would not stop with the chatter. The second went for

only an inch. I stopped and made a 4 point steady rest with bearings. This helped

until a closer look. There were still deep chatter marks under the smooth surface, Also it

was difficult to keep the barrels straight. One other thing was the great amount of heat.

One such barrel expanded to the point of scaring the dead center.

[attachment=9066:DSC00212-id=1200.JPG]

I stopped and made a small cooling system with an aquarium pump. I used the formula

for water soluble oil of 4 gals water, a qt of oil and 3 cups of liquid soap. This formula

needs a little adjustment. The pump has a magnet as the armature. Any amount of

swarf on it will cause it to stop. I made a filter of an old sock and a coffee filter and loctite

the magnet to the plastic pump fins. Works much better but the coolant is still to thick.


I noticed that by placing my fingers on the barrel it would stop humming. I made a spring

loaded finger. It did not help. I made another one with 3 fingers but it did not help either.

No pictures of it.

[attachment=9067:DSC00213-id=1201.JPG]

[attachment=9068:DSC00214-id=1202.JPG]

I ground different shapes of cutting tools. The best seemed to be a 1/4 hss tool with

a 1/8 radius. Until I tool it off for inspection. Chatter.


After sacrificing 6 barrels I stopped and switched over to a tool post grinder I made

before I knew what angular contact bearings were. I remover the steady rest and

tried to grind out the chatter marks. This worked except now I had under sized barrels

with flakes that look like the orange peal of a bad lacquer finish.

Grinding also produced much heat. I used the coolant while grinding.

Also seemed to improve the finish but it is hard to tell. I am trying

to produce something that will blue nicely.


This grinder is an awkward monster. I made it because I had just made a dovetail slide

as an exercise and needed a use for it. The spindle is of my awkward design and uses

plain bearings. I am going to disassemble the grinder and reuse the parts for something

else. The slide works great, though.


I stopped grinding and started making a proper tool post grinder using the proper bearings.

I will go back and double check the lathe for run out and rigidity.


I would ask Cutter how he achieves the finish on his barrels but I already know the answer.

MAGIC.


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 02, 2013, 06:15:37 PM
Hi Steve,
What barrels are you starting with ?
Blanks, take-off, new,
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 03, 2013, 09:29:15 AM
I shaped my barrel only 100 mm at a time.  I then did full length cuts of 0.1mm off the diameter at a ridiculously slow feed rate. Each cut of a 14\" barrel took something like 20 minutes! There wasn\'t any chatter doing it this way.

Hope this helps
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 03, 2013, 02:40:44 PM
Hey, Cutter,
The barrels are Brownell\'s liners.
The ones I am testing are damaged, either too short, etc.,
or from my acid event.
After doing more reading it seems that there are
many inventive solutions to this venerable problem.
One guy uses a hunk of lead he holds with his left hand
while oiling with his right.  Who is operating the lathe?
The younger guys are using a spring loaded skate board wheel.
Multiple passes.  Flip end for end.
The big boys use hydraulic followers.X generation is using
computers and stepper motors.  And more.  Grinding, belt sanding.
The old timers used a hinged piece of white oak.  It had to white.
I am going to rework my 4 spring follower with stronger springs
just for the hell of it.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 03, 2013, 02:41:51 PM
Pmercer,
I am going to keep trying
till I get it right.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 03, 2013, 03:17:43 PM
A gun drill is made rigid by pressurized oil pumped
through the center hole.
What if a barrel was pressurized through the
center hole?  Would this work?
Any ideas?
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 03, 2013, 08:07:23 PM
The center hole in the drill is for coolant
to flush out the chips.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 03, 2013, 08:14:37 PM
What I mean is pressurizing the barrel while turning
the taper to eliminate chatter.
Just a thought.  If it would work someone
would be doing it.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 06, 2013, 05:07:27 PM

Here is that red monster tool post grinder

I made long ago. It was one of the first things

I made. I thought I was doing good.

It has standard ball bearings and a universal

motor. It was conroled with a router speed control.

Has run out and chatter.

[attachment=9073:DSC00220-id=1217.JPG]


[attachment=9071:DSC00218-id=1218.JPG]


[attachment=9072:DSC00219-id=1219.JPG]

Its replacement is a high speed spindle. It uses angular contact

bearings. The bearings are pre-loaded. The motor is

high speed DC, variable speed. It is the same

spindle as on the Bonelle T&C grinder.

The wheels are held with a draw bar and are interchangeable.

Need to get the proper belt.

[attachment=9069:DSC00216-id=1220.JPG]


[attachment=9070:DSC00217-id=1221.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 14, 2013, 05:43:23 AM
You should get a nice finish like this.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 14, 2013, 06:46:50 PM
Hey Mr P.,
Still waiting for the belts I ordered.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 15, 2013, 10:45:32 PM

Received the belt but for some strange reason

they were all 3.14 times longer than I thought

I had ordered. After checking the site I realised

that they are listed by diameter rather then length.

I spoke with a nice lady all got the entire order corrected.

This is a good source of belts, from one to one gazillion.
http://sdp-si.com/

Should be able to make a test grind next week.

Have plenty to do till then.

[attachment=9074:DSC00228-id=1231.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 16, 2013, 12:53:18 AM
Thursday was National Pi Day after all  --- 3-14.

gary
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 16, 2013, 04:03:17 AM
That is too funny.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 27, 2013, 08:00:46 PM

I have some carbide tips similar to

Cutter\'s carbide cutter.

[attachment=9075:DSC00223-id=1247.JPG]

Because of the angles this tip can be

used to cut and face without

changing its position.

[attachment=9079:DSC00233-id=1248.JPG]

It reminds me

of the tangential tool or as it is

called, the diamond tool.

[attachment=9077:DSC00231-id=1249.JPG]


[attachment=9078:DSC00232-id=1250.JPG]

I have a few tips that are broken on this

cutting edge. I made tool holders to use

the unbroken cutting edges.

[attachment=9076:DSC00229-id=1251.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 27, 2013, 08:23:59 PM

These tips cut the barrels but did not

leave the finish Cuter achieved. The

swarf was fine grained like pepper instead of curls.

They did not stop the chatter.

I had to make another tool post for the holders.

[attachment=9080:DSC00230-id=1256.JPG]

As this reminded me of the diamond tool I made

one to fit the Craftsman lathe.


[attachment=9081:DSC00234-id=1257.JPG]


[attachment=9082:DSC00235-id=1258.JPG]

There is not much room above the top slide.

[attachment=9083:DSC00236-id=1259.JPG]

I made several test cuts.

This stopped the chatter. The cut was rough as I did not

sharpen the cutting tool with a radius. I just left

the HSS edges square for now. I have my T&C Grinder

set up for another project.


I need to check my phone. I need to re-size the pictures.


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 28, 2013, 12:49:41 PM

The belts arrived for the tool post grinder.

To my surprise it works very well. The free

motor speed is 12k rpm and with a load of

a .002 cut it is 9k-10k rpm. I added more

vent holes in the motor cover.

[attachment=9084:DSC00237-id=1261.JPG]


[attachment=9085:DSC00238-id=1262.JPG]

I read a post on another site where the author

was going to purchase a saw blade sharpener

from Harbor Freight and use the motor for

a tool post grinder. As it attaches on a round rod

he was going to attach it to his round tool post.

I feel he is going to have the same problems

I had with the red monster. There will be chatter

from the grinder bearings as there is

no separate spindle.

[attachment=9087:DSC00244-id=1264.JPG]

As I had one of these I checked the grinding wheel.

I made an arbor for it to fit my grinder.

The wheel is about 4\" in diameter and 1/8\" wide.

Worked pretty good.

[attachment=9086:DSC00243-id=1263.JPG]

I used the grinder with coolant. It splashed

the coolant everywhere so I added guards.


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on March 28, 2013, 01:09:51 PM

I finished the spring loaded follow rest.

[attachment=9091:DSC00242-id=1265.JPG]

[attachment=9088:DSC00239-id=1266.JPG]

[attachment=9089:DSC00240-id=1267.JPG]

This also surprised me as my first attempts

were not successful. Used with the diamond

tool and a HSS cutter it all but elimanated any chatter.

[attachment=9090:DSC00241-id=1268.JPG]

I tried several carbide tools in the diamond holder.

Because of their more acute angles they dug

into the barrels and made a concave cut.

With the proper radius on a HSS cutter I believe

I have solved my chatter problem and

I can now go on to the next step.


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on April 04, 2013, 09:11:32 PM

I continued with the bolt body.

The material arrived from Online Metals.

I set up the band saw to cut them to length


[attachment=9092:DSC00245-id=1271.JPG]

I used a 10 tooth blade, an 18 tooth would be better.

An abrasive cutoff would saw probably have been

faster but I did not want to apply heat at this time.

I faced them and removed the burr with a file.

[attachment=9094:DSC00247-id=1273.JPG]

I cut a 5/16 x .080 slot, .313 from one end.

[attachment=9093:DSC00246-id=1274.JPG]

That is a carpenter\'s clamp. I need to make

a more elagant adjustable vise stop.

I used a 1/16 edge radius tool to round over

the edges of a 5/16 x 3/8 W-1 flat bar.

[attachment=9095:DSC00248-id=1275.JPG]

I set up the mini mill to part the bar into .250 length pieces.

[attachment=9096:DSC00250-id=1276.JPG]

This will become the lug. It will be silver soldered

into the slot of the body. The slot will align it

and keep it in the correct place.


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on April 04, 2013, 09:13:47 PM

[attachment=9097:DSC00249-id=1277.JPG]


[attachment=9098:DSC00252-id=1278.JPG]


[attachment=9099:DSC00253-id=1279.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on April 10, 2013, 12:42:42 PM
Looking good. I\'ve not worked on mine in a long time. Looking to move ASAP and get a new workshop set up!
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on April 13, 2013, 03:54:47 AM

I made a tray of sheet metal to hold the bodies.

I used a heavy bar as a counter weight.

[attachment=9100:DSC00257-id=1280.JPG]

I used a spring center punch to indent 4 pips

on the slot. This allows room for the solder to flow.

[attachment=9103:DSC00255-id=1281.JPG]


[attachment=9104:DSC00256-id=1282.JPG]

I cleaned the bodies with sulfuric acid and

rinsed with water. As this will corrode the steel

do not acid dip until right before soldering.

Place the flux soon after dipping as this will

protect the steel. If the steel is clean you should

see a slight rusty color in the slot. Do not

touch the slot after acid cleaning.

I am using an old cell phone camera. It does

not have much resolution but you can

still see the pips.

I cut two pieces of .060 dia wire solder

1/4 to 5/16 length. I flattened the solder before

setting in place. Keeps things from rolling.

This seems to be the correct amount of solder.

Less than this and I have had lugs that were not

fully covered. More and there was excess solder to remove.

[attachment=9101:DSC00258-id=1283.JPG]

I placed a drop of flux over the solder, enough

to cover all when the lug is placed on top.

The flux is diluted with water about 50%.

[attachment=9102:DSC00259-id=1284.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on May 01, 2013, 01:55:28 PM

I cleaned the lugs in acid holding with a hemostat and rinsed with water.

Was careful not to touch the area to be soldered.

Placed in the slot and aligned with my fingers.

Made sure there was enough flux.

[attachment=9105:DSC00263-id=1288.JPG]

The water in the flux will steam off as soon as heat is applied.

This will cause small parts to move. To avoid this I bring the heat

from the bottom slowly until the water is gone and the flux

turns white. At this point the flux will hold everything together.

I bring the torch tip closer until the flame is completely surrounding the bolt body.

Next the flux will start to turn clear and flow like water. Just before the body

turns a dull red the solder will start to melt. I leave the heat in place

and gently press down on the lug with a soldering tool. This puts the

lug in place and presses the solder from under it. The temperature

is now so that the solder will draw itself over the complete joint.

Everything is now a dull red.

I remove the heat and let everything air cool.

[attachment=9106:DSC00264-id=1289.JPG]

I use a mapp gas and oxygen torch.

[attachment=9107:DSC00265-id=1290.JPG]

It works will for silver solder but the oxygen bottles are expensive

and run out of gas just when you need it. I solved this by attaching a small

hose to my large oxygen bottle.


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on July 24, 2013, 10:52:54 AM
I received a PM from Steelcrafter asking for information about the cam modifications.
I am going to post my reply here as some one else may be interested.
I had plan to give more information and pictures when I progress to making the cams.

Hi.
I have read your posts.
I can not locate my notes on the cam modifications.
Yes, it does make a difference in the amount of torque
on the crank handle and the smoothness of the travel.
The purpose is to eliminate the abrupt change in direction
when the lug hits the cam.
The plans call for moving one hole on the dividing head
and 0.005 on the table to produce a 45 angle.
I started plunging at the entry groove.
I moved the head one hole and the table 0.001 for several
holes, then 0.002 for several holes, 0.003, then 0.004, and
then 0.005.  This created a curved slope on the cam instead
of the abrupt angle.
I will keep looking for my notes.
Hope this helps.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on July 24, 2013, 12:22:21 PM
More reply, I am sure Steelcrafter does not mind sharing this information.

The opposite cam will need to have the corner removed to
match the change at the entry groove.
No binding or jamming.
Had not progressed to ejection yet.
Look at my post Modifying the cam.  It shows a picture of the cam.
I have not found my notes.  But I am sure that I took
the length from the entry groove to the apex of the 45 degree angle
and divided it into 5 parts.  Then the cut was increased 0.001
at each part.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on July 25, 2013, 04:15:38 PM
CAUTION!

I still have not found my notes.
I fear that these instructions are not correct.
If your are trying to cut a cam DO NOT follow them
until I can make another post with correct information.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on July 25, 2013, 05:41:02 PM
Steve,
I can wait until you find your notes or are able to reproduce a working example of the CAM Mod. I have plenty of other items I need to complete.

Thx
sc
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on July 27, 2013, 11:30:07 AM
I made several more cams.
I changed my original dimensions.
I will post the results in the section
Modifying the Cams.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on July 30, 2013, 01:23:49 PM
With Steelcrafter\'s permission I am going to post our PMs in case they may benefit others building the D&E.
Also see more posts on modifying the cams.  These are edited.
----------
Hey Steve,
I\'m building the D&E GG and seen your posts on the GG forum. Did you have
any success with modifying the cam box slope? I haven\'t made those parts
yet but wanted to know if that mod made any difference or not.
Thanks
Dan
----------
Hi.
I have read your posts.
I can not locate my notes on the cam modifications.
Yes, it does make a difference in the amount of torque on the crank handle and the smoothness of the travel.
The purpose is to eliminate the abrupt change in direction
when the lug hits the cam.
The plans call for moving one hole on the dividing head
and 0.005 on the table to produce a 45 angle.
I started plunging at the entry groove.
I moved the head one hole and the table 0.001 for several
holes, then 0.002 for several holes, 0.003, then 0.004, and
then 0.005.  This created a curved slope on the cam instead
of the abrupt angle.
I will keep looking for my notes.
Hope this helps.
----------
Interesting method. Did this modification create any binding, jamming, or ejection issues?
Thanks
Dan
----------
I still can not find my notes.
The five divisions are not correct.
I will make another cam and come up
with the correct figures.
Hope this helps.
----------
That would be great Steve! At this point I\'m not well studied on the mechanics of how the two cams work the bolts in tandem. Based on your findings it sounds like anything done to reduce required torque would be a worthwhile endeavor.
I last finished drilling the .313 hole in my bolts. Next step is to counterbore and tap for the plug in the end. I had to order a size ought center drill for the firing pin hole. The smallest I had was size 4, much to big for the .089 hole in the end of the bolt.  
Appreciate all your guidance!
----------
The bolt lug touches only one cam at a time.  The space between the two cams at the angles is just empty space.
As the bolt is inserted into the entry hole the large, flat area of the front cam keeps it in the correct position so the end of the bolt will slide into the cocking ring.  (I have replaced the round tip of the bolt with a ball bearing.  It cuts down on the friction.  I have tried other things here also such as using UHMW plastic and a curved, linear ball bearing in the cocking ring).  The cam contacts only the front side of the lug.  As the bolt carrier is rotated by the handle the lug moves until it encounters the acute angle of the rear cam.  The spring is compressed as the rotation continues.  The cam contacts only the rear right corner of the lug. (This is the beginning of the firing problems.  By the time this first bolt reaches the firing position the next two bolts are also being compressed making it difficult to turn the handle.  This why I modified the cam, to lengthen the travel it takes to compress the three springs and to lessen the degree of the angle so the handle would turn more freely).  The lug moves along the angle until it is fully cocked and reaches the smaller flat on the rear cam.  Here the round has been fully slid into the chamber and the ejector is in contact with the rim.  The rear part of the lug is now in contact with the small flat of the rear cam.  The spring keeps it in contact.  This is what absorbs the shock of firing and why the cocking ring must be tight against the rear cam.  (The weakness of the ejector and the fit are more firing problems).
It travels on this flat until it is released by the cocking ring.  
Bang!  
(The position, shape and spring pressure of the firing pin are the next firing problems).
Here the ejector starts to pull the round out of the chamber as it engages the acute angle of the front cam.  (The ejector has always been a problem). It contacts the front, right corner of the lug.
It rides on this angle, dropping out the round until it hits the other side of the rear cam before the entry hole.  Left, rear corner, but mostly the rear of the lug.  It passes the entry hole and starts over.
----------
That explains it quite well, thank you Steve. I had only a cursory understanding until now. I\'m going to follow your instructions on the cam mod.
So, did you start the cocking angle right at the beginning of the entry hole or did you leave a small flat here? What your calling the entry hole is the slot in the rear cam that allows removal of the bolt correct?
I\'m just about done with the firing pins. I made them out of two pieces. The body is made out of 416 SS and the pin is made out of W1. I\'m going to quench them in oil after silver soldering to harden them up.  I made the bolt body from 8620 and the lug out of O1. Will harden both of them as well but will have to be careful since the lug is soldered on already.> Take care!
---------
As you can see I have not received many replies to my posts.
Would you mind if I copy our PM messages and post them on the forum?
Then we can continue on the forum so someone else might benefit.
I do not consider my posts to be instructions but just the way I am proceeding
to solve the problems I have found.
Thank you.
-------------
Feel free to cut and paste.
I\'m building the pins to print for now. I\'ve read the post about modifying the pins as well as the floating design from Roller. I\'m not entirely convinced the issue is not weight of the pin assembly. If there was more weight flinging forward, the pin end would be less critical.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on August 19, 2013, 06:24:32 PM

I continued on by turning the lugs to size.

I made the turning fixture as per plans.


[attachment=9108:DSC00293-id=1400.JPG]


I colored the lug blue for clearity.

This is when I started to have trouble as some of the

lugs were harder than others.

I switched to a carbide cutter.


[attachment=9109:DSC00294-id=1401.JPG]


I made the offset fixture per plan. Make sure

to get the 5.78 offset in the correct direction.


[attachment=9110:DSC00295-id=1402.JPG]


I turned the offset to size.


[attachment=9111:DSC00296-id=1403.JPG]


I faced the offset and center drilled.

then I drilled the #43 hole.

This is where more problems arose as this is

deep hole drilling.


[attachment=9112:DSC00298-id=1404.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on August 19, 2013, 06:42:35 PM

I broke a few bits before I stopped

and made a peck drill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh4L65V1SqQ


[attachment=9113:DSC00299-id=1405.JPG]


Using this I have not broken another bit.

I also found that the center of the #43 hole

and the 5/16 hole were not lining up. So I

drilled the #43 hole as deep as I could so the

5/16 bit would meet it and follow it into the

center of the #43 hole.


[attachment=9114:DSC00300-id=1406.JPG]


I drilled the 5/16 hole.


[attachment=9115:DSC00301-id=1407.JPG]


As I am using the 4mm non rotating firing pins

I drilled the entire depth of the hole using a

letter Q bit. This is the tap sise for the 3/8 x 32 thread.

I then taped the threads by using first a tapered tap

and then a bottoming tap. I cut five threads.


[attachment=9116:DSC00302-id=1408.JPG]


Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on August 19, 2013, 07:42:21 PM
At this point I ran into problems with drilling and turning
because of the unexpected hardening of the material.
I chose 7/16 drill rod as I want to harden the end of
the offset that touches the brass round.  Some of the lugs were
so hard that they destroyed the hss turning tool.  Without quenching.
Others were very soft.  I concluded that it was the the maximum
temperature reached while hard soldering.  It is difficult to
maintain a constant temperature using a torch.

I changed to a carbide insert cutting tool to finish turning the lugs.
Broke a few inserts.  Should have waited until I annealed them.

I separated the hard pieces and cleaned them.  Then I heated them
to a dark grey color and let them air cool.

And I tried drilling them again.  About half were ok.  The others were
still hard.  I tried to anneal them again and got most of them soft
enough to drill.

The next problem was that though they would drill they would not drill
centered the entire length.  This is important because the firing pin spring
retaining nut will rub and cause interferance when firing.

I set these aside and then tried a carbide boring bar.  This worked
on most of them but a few were still not centered.  I set these aside
until I made some more boring bars.  The commercial ones I had all broke.
I have not resolved this issue yet.

I stopped to do reading and research on heat treating and hardening.  I want
to set up a much better heat treating system.

I selected ten bolts that had a soft lug to use as a control group with the
firing pins as per plan for testing.

I selected another ten and then hardened the lugs for a control group for
testing against the soft group.  I heated them until they were a dull red
just under the hard solder melt temperature and the dropped them in
a can of oil.  I did not harden the end as the final length  had
not been determined yet.

These will be used in combination with different firing pins to measure
the inch pounds of force needed to operate the crank handle.  I need to
look back at Roller\'s posts but I think he said he had about 25-30 inch pounds
to turn the handle,(I could be wrong), I have gotten down to 11 inch pounds.

I want to establish a measurement of force that I  can refer to
when doing this build.  It is not completely scientific because the measuring tools
I bought from EBay are not calibrated but it is better than what I feel with my hands.

I have made ten firing pins per plan using the specified springs.

I have also made a set of ten non rotating 4mm pins using a larger id spring
and a ball bearing for the end.

Have not done any testing of these yet.  I have been able to turn these in the
test stand without breaking the crank handle gear pin.  I have not tested
the per plan cam against the modified cam as yet.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on September 08, 2013, 04:06:31 PM
I\'ve not been on this forum for a while and still not moved so not got my workshop back up and running. I used a small drill from both ends which almost met in the middle. I then used milling bits to rather than drill bits to ensure a centralized hole.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on November 04, 2013, 07:28:25 AM
Steve,  you have not posted any of your D&E efforts in quite a while.   Hows it going?  

  I relocated from NY state to SC back in march and sold my machines because they were just too difficult to move.   I am now in the process of getting machines and hope to return to my D&E gun before too long.

Hope all is well,  look forward to more D&E adventures.

George
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on November 08, 2013, 01:57:53 PM
Sparky,
Been busy.  Will post soon.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on November 08, 2013, 02:00:01 PM
Atiggerm,
I keep getting error messages from email
trying to contact you.  Do you mind if I
answer your questions here?
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on November 14, 2013, 08:27:30 PM
Yeah sry was out in the boonies in anouther country on a job. Just got back. No access to email and didn\'t know there plug styles were different then mine and couldn\'t fine anywhere in town to buy a converter plug. But no I don\'t mine you can post it on here. I\'m looking into starting my build soon. Wanted to do a d&e design but seems many have problems and egg us more reliable thou I still want a d&e. So wondering if anyone has made a reliable build yet and what changes they have made. I\'m wanting to make one for LR. Thou I will probly have to make one with shorts first to work threw the bugs and figure out all the changes needed and best way to make everything. I have seen the YouTube video of the one firing but not much else for a reliable gun and am looking for input on the beats things to go about doing to make it reliable. I own my own tool and die shop so process and accuracy is not a probly just design. Thx for your time.

Adam
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on November 17, 2013, 10:00:48 AM
I have not worked on my project for a while.
Making most of the ggun is just a matter of following
the plans.  The problem is in the firing and that is what
has interested me.  I have tried several ways to  improve
on it.  What I have found is that the round firing pin does
not strike the rim of the round.  Making the bolt carrier
of two pieces allows its position to be adjusted.
Changing the firing pin to a non rotating design helps.
I have not finished the modifications and testing.
The only gun I know of that fires well is Roller\'s.
I suggest you study the design and the posts here to
get the information available.  This is the only active site
that has this information on the d&e.
I will make some more posts on testing and progress as
soon as I finish some other projects.
I am sure this design can be made to fire.  My goal is
100 rounds with no misfires.
Roller\'s gun uses the plans design for the extractor with modifications.
Steelcrafter was to use a finger extractor.
I have been working on the spring finger design but have
had trouble locating the 1075 annealed shim stock I need.
Also need a heat treating oven.
Cutter is a very good resource and is always willing to help
but I think he cheats by using magic tools in a darken workshop.
I have been concentrating on experimenting to improve the
firing so have not progressed much on the rest of the gun.
By adjusting the position of the firing pin where it strikes
the round I have been able to achieve 100% firing on
my test stand.
With your experience you should be able to produce
a first class gun.
Title: D&E Re-build
Post by: on November 17, 2013, 04:40:04 PM
Sparky,
I worked on the bolts until I was able to get several to fire
100%.  I had to adjust its position, one of the reasons I
made the bolt carrier two pieces.  I stopped on the bolts
and did a series of tests.  Need to post the results.  I
got to the point that I need a heat treating oven instead of
using a torch.  I started to make one, and have been working
on other non ggun projects.  Will post some more when I finish the oven.